XP loss

[Meh]

DC is classed as a hunter which would throw off most of your comparisons as most of the time a DC dies to a warbird so you are just giving more of an advantage to high exp cloakers.

Doesn't have to be classed as a hunter. For instance, I came up with the following rating scheme to determine what a ship rates as:
Take defense rating (normal formula), plus # HP, plus (# CDs / 50), minus (# cargo / 50), to give you a 'class rating', and anything above 20 is a warbird. Cargo is factored in as to make the high defense traders rank lower.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... c&hl=en_US

^ With this scheme (not perfect), DC still ranks as a warbird class.

You could take this a step further by tweaking the 'class rating' a little more, and then use the ratings themselves to factor how much xp is gained/lost.

For instance, the IKMS has a rating of 29.1, while the Escape Pod has a rating of 0.9, so if a IKMS podded an Escape Pod, then you would take the loser rating of 0.9, double it, and divide it by the winners rating of 29.1, and you get roughly 6.1%. So for instance, if the normal death loss should be 15% xp, then you would do:
LosersXP - (LosersXP * (15% * 6.1%))
So'd the loser would lose almost nothing, and the winner would get almost nothing.

Now instead, have the IKMS kill an Trade Master (6.5), you'd get a factor of 44.7%, so the TM would lose a little less than half the normal rate, because a very large warbird podded it.

Now, jump down to say the highest ranking hunter, a Salvene Ravager (not counting IKAC cause its rating has it in the warbirds group), at 17.65 rating, having it kill a TM, results in 73.7% of normal loss. This allows for the fact that it is harder to kill a TM in a Ravager than a much bigger warbird.

Now if the Ravager killed an IST (which has a much lower defense and easier to pod), then the IST takes 34% of normal loss.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for the DC, which was your concern, if it dies to the IKMS, then it loses 137.5% of normal loss, IE it loses more than the normal loss/gain. So at say a 15% normal loss rate, the DC would lose 20.625% xp.

So killing something closer to your ship class results in higher gain/loss, killing something weak & squishy results in a considerably lower gain/loss, and even allows for traders in higher defense ships to take a bigger hit for dying in something that is harder to kill.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next, we can use the same formula for multi-ship combat.
So say you are in IKMS, and get jumped by an EoS, and TAC, then you would get a ratio of 116.9%, or a loss of 17.5%.

As you can see, with a little tweaking & fine tuning, we could come up with a reasonable formula, where when the old rate was a flat 20% (?), the new rate can be anywhere from 30% down to say 10%.

You could even hard-cap it, so regardless of circumstances the most you can lose is 30%, and the least you can lose is 10%, based on the formula Page posted earlier.

[SpaceSock]

No it would erase the aspect of hunting for XP early.

[Infinity]

This sums up the day before yesterday::

I arm my FU at nearly 45k, just bellow. I get a kill. 84k kill.

Code: Select all

Pi (35) salvages 1,530,743 credits from the wreckage and gains 5,067 experience.

I check SMR few seconds too late, I die. To a guy of mine or one level higher.

Code: Select all

Pi (35) has been DESTROYED, losing 4,991 experience.

I end in a pod with a bit over 46k and about... 150-180 turns. I go to the bank, get IST, walk to a CA and stay there. About 42-44 hrs later I make 10k xp and I sit in fed with 56k.

My conclusion:

Code: Select all

[20:21] <kiNky> this low xp loss is retarded
[20:22] <Beausoleil> yeah
[20:22] <kiNky> like I lost... nothing
[20:22] <kiNky> I had more xp when I died
[20:22] <kiNky> than when I started "hunting" that day
[20:22] <kiNky> then I traded once with max turns
[20:22] <kiNky> and Im 10k higher
[20:22] <kiNky> wtf?!
[20:22] <kiNky> I just keep gaining xp this way
[20:22] <Beausoleil> yep
[20:22] <kiNky> there's no way of LOSING xp
[20:22] <Beausoleil> it rewards activity
[20:22] <kiNky> unless you get raped in a raid
[20:23] <kiNky> it rewards activity a bit too much if I can have 65k
[20:23] <kiNky> and I will after next trade session
[20:23] <kiNky> hell, even if Orca pods me I will still be at 60k
[20:23] <kiNky> what kind of retarded thiking is this?
[20:23] <kiNky> you must care at least a little about pods
[20:23] <kiNky> they cannot be completely painless
[20:24] <Beausoleil> i agree

[JettJackson]

Kiky hit the nail right on the head, the cost of losses are nothing compared to gains by trading, all this does is benefit people who are active and don't op. It does severely punish op teams though especially those busting 70s.

[JettJackson]

Come Find Me:) (98) has been DESTROYED, losing 29,777 experience.
LotuS (90) salvages 6,891,321 credits from the wreckage and gains 13,606 experience.

175,588 + 29,777 = 205,365

What this all means, is that a 205k player lost only 1 level when he died. I want to see how this can be justified, the cloaker stays cloaking no problem. While the person who killed the cloaker barely gets ahead.

Loty was 15k now 29k, barely a jump.

[Meh]

Come Find Me:) (98) has been DESTROYED, losing 29,777 experience.
LotuS (90) salvages 6,891,321 credits from the wreckage and gains 13,606 experience.

175,588 + 29,777 = 205,365

What this all means, is that a 205k player lost only 1 level when he died. I want to see how this can be justified, the cloaker stays cloaking no problem. While the person who killed the cloaker barely gets ahead.

Loty was 15k now 29k, barely a jump.

First off, if he was at 205,365 when he died, the next lvl up is 205,660, and he is now sitting at 175,588, which is just above lvl 35 at 174,615. So you claim he 'only' lost 1 lvl.
From lvl 36 (189,724 xp) to lvl 37 (205,660 xp) is 15,936 xp. Since he was at 205,365 when he died, that means he lost 15,641 of 15,936 which is 15,641/15,936 = 98.2% of that lvl.
Next from lvl 35 (174,615 xp) to lvl 36, it is 15,109 xp. Since he is at 175,588, that means he lost 14,136 of 15,109 which is 14,136/15,109 = 93.6%
So adding it all together, he lost 1.92 lvls. So he didn't 'only' lose 1 lvl.

Next, you aren't factoring the lost of his high lvl cloaker (a DC I believe), so that's roughly 40 mil down the drain.

Third, you are whining that Lotus 'only' got 14k for killing him. Oh boo hoo. Get over yourself. I just traded a days and half worth of turns today and gained 12k. Lotus gained more xp than I did after stocking up a day & half worth of turns and trading a boring route.

Kiky hit the nail right on the head, the cost of losses are nothing compared to gains by trading, all this does is benefit people who are active and don't op. It does severely punish op teams though especially those busting 70s.

Next is this asinine statement. Of course the game benefits people who are active. The game has always only benefited the most active players. As to opping, of course it is always going to benefit those who don't op. Opping has large risks, and very little in the way of xp rewards. But if you are opping to gain xp, you're a blooming idiot.

As to kiNky's statement that pods are 'painless', they are fairly painless at low lvl. But at high lvl like Come find me, 30k xp is not painless. Additionally, if you are going by what kiNky said, where you can make about 10k every 42 to 44 hours (lets just round to 2 days worth), then, Come Find Me has lost 6 days worth (30k/10k * 2 days = 6) of xp, and a 35 mil ship. That isn't painless.

Of course with the old system, Come find me would have lost double the xp, so he would have been punished with roughly 12 days of xp.

[JettJackson]

Come Find Me:) (98) has been DESTROYED, losing 29,777 experience.
LotuS (90) salvages 6,891,321 credits from the wreckage and gains 13,606 experience.

175,588 + 29,777 = 205,365

What this all means, is that a 205k player lost only 1 level when he died. I want to see how this can be justified, the cloaker stays cloaking no problem. While the person who killed the cloaker barely gets ahead.

Loty was 15k now 29k, barely a jump.

First off, if he was at 205,365 when he died, the next lvl up is 205,660, and he is now sitting at 175,588, which is just above lvl 35 at 174,615. So you claim he 'only' lost 1 lvl.
From lvl 36 (189,724 xp) to lvl 37 (205,660 xp) is 15,936 xp. Since he was at 205,365 when he died, that means he lost 15,641 of 15,936 which is 15,641/15,936 = 98.2% of that lvl.
Next from lvl 35 (174,615 xp) to lvl 36, it is 15,109 xp. Since he is at 175,588, that means he lost 14,136 of 15,109 which is 14,136/15,109 = 93.6%
So adding it all together, he lost 1.92 lvls. So he didn't 'only' lose 1 lvl.

Next, you aren't factoring the lost of his high lvl cloaker (a DC I believe), so that's roughly 40 mil down the drain.

Third, you are whining that Lotus 'only' got 14k for killing him. Oh boo hoo. Get over yourself. I just traded a days and half worth of turns today and gained 12k. Lotus gained more xp than I did after stocking up a day & half worth of turns and trading a boring route.

Kiky hit the nail right on the head, the cost of losses are nothing compared to gains by trading, all this does is benefit people who are active and don't op. It does severely punish op teams though especially those busting 70s.

Next is this asinine statement. Of course the game benefits people who are active. The game has always only benefited the most active players. As to opping, of course it is always going to benefit those who don't op. Opping has large risks, and very little in the way of xp rewards. But if you are opping to gain xp, you're a blooming idiot.

As to kiNky's statement that pods are 'painless', they are fairly painless at low lvl. But at high lvl like Come find me, 30k xp is not painless. Additionally, if you are going by what kiNky said, where you can make about 10k every 42 to 44 hours (lets just round to 2 days worth), then, Come Find Me has lost 6 days worth (30k/10k * 2 days = 6) of xp, and a 35 mil ship. That isn't painless.

Of course with the old system, Come find me would have lost double the xp, so he would have been punished with roughly 12 days of xp.

DC is 30 mill, and money is easy to recoup, so that's not much of a relevant statement. Secondly don't look at exp as a number, that is foolish to do when you are high. Look at level losses which are especially important with the combat code and cloaking. As for your bashing of opping, I think it's a huge mistake to punish one aspect of playing while giving great benefit to another.

[Meh]

DC is 30 mill, and money is easy to recoup, so that's not much of a relevant statement. Secondly don't look at exp as a number, that is foolish to do when you are high. Look at level losses which are especially important with the combat code and cloaking. As for your bashing of opping, I think it's a huge mistake to punish one aspect of playing while giving great benefit to another.

You've got it backwards. XP at a low lvl is irrelevant, as it is easy to recoup 1, 2, 3, 10+ lvls when you are insanely low. However recouping that 1.9 lvls at lvl 35 to 37 is not easy and therefore the numbers do matter.

As to bashing opping, I wasn't bashing it. I was contradicting your statement that the game favors the active & players who don't op. Which it does in terms of xp, as again, gaining xp from opping is very little (or even negative if you die), and has very high risk of dying & loss. But again, your opping comparison is irrelevant as you don't op to gain xp, you op for other reasons. In terms of xp & lvls, of course the game is going to favor active traders vs active oppers.

So your statement that the current xp loss formula benefits active traders is still asinine, as that is how it is and has always been. Even the old formula benefits active traders. The game has pretty much always been that active traders gain the most xp.

As to the price of DC, I was padding the price with a round number for equipping/arming it and what not. My padding was a bit high, but irrelevant, as 30 mil loss is still 30 mil loss.

[JettJackson]

DC is 30 mill, and money is easy to recoup, so that's not much of a relevant statement. Secondly don't look at exp as a number, that is foolish to do when you are high. Look at level losses which are especially important with the combat code and cloaking. As for your bashing of opping, I think it's a huge mistake to punish one aspect of playing while giving great benefit to another.

You've got it backwards. XP at a low lvl is irrelevant, as it is easy to recoup 1, 2, 3, 10+ lvls when you are insanely low. However recouping that 1.9 lvls at lvl 35 to 37 is not easy and therefore the numbers do matter.

As to bashing opping, I wasn't bashing it. I was contradicting your statement that the game favors the active & players who don't op. Which it does in terms of xp, as again, gaining xp from opping is very little (or even negative if you die), and has very high risk of dying & loss. But again, your opping comparison is irrelevant as you don't op to gain xp, you op for other reasons. In terms of xp & lvls, of course the game is going to favor active traders vs active oppers.

So your statement that the current xp loss formula benefits active traders is still asinine, as that is how it is and has always been. Even the old formula benefits active traders. The game has pretty much always been that active traders gain the most xp.

As to the price of DC, I was padding the price with a round number for equipping/arming it and what not. My padding was a bit high, but irrelevant, as 30 mil loss is still 30 mil loss.

Opping has a negative affect on your exp most of the time, because one death is crippling no matter what exp you are.

[Meh]

Another thing, which I believe you are utterly wrong on is that you talk as though all lvls are equal. But the amount of work it takes to gain each different lvl is not the same (as evident by the amount of xp between each lvl). So kiNky losing 'only' 1 lvl at lvl 23 (50,964 xp) down to lvl 22 (44,765 xp), is the not the same as Come Find Me losing 'only' 1 lvl at lvl 36.9 (205k xp), down to lvl 35 (175k xp).

Those 2 losses are not equivalent.

/sarcasm
If you want them to be equivalent & fair, then we should flatten the xp scale, instead of having it be exponential as it is. IE, there is 50 lvls from 0 xp to 500k xp, so lets flatten every lvl to 10k xp, so:
Lvl 0 = 0 to 9,999 xp.
Lvl 1 = 10,000 to 19,999 xp.
Lvl 3 = 20,000 to 29,999 xp.
...
Lvl 22 = 220,000 to 229,999 xp.
Lvl 23 = 230,000 to 239,999 xp.
...
Lvl 35 = 350,000 to 359,999 xp.
Lvl 36 = 360,000 to 369,999 xp.
Lvl 37 = 370,000 to 379,999 xp.
...
Lvl 49 = 490,000 to 499,999 xp.
Lvl 50 = 500,000+

Next, instead of being a percentage, you want it to cost multiple lvls, so lets take an automatic 20k on every death (so everyone always loses 2 lvls when they die), and then +/- 1k for every lvl difference between the poddee & podder. And lets give the podder an automatic 10k +/- 500 xp for every lvl difference.

So in this case, Lotus at lvl 1 (15k), and Come Find Me at lvl 20 (205k), Come Find Me would lose 20k + ((20 - 1) * 1k), for a total loss of 39k, or 3.9 lvls putting him 166k or lvl 16, and Lotus would gain 10k + ((20 - 1) * 500), for a total gain of 19.5k putting him at 34.5k or lvl 3 (2 lvls gained).

Is that a big enough punishment for Come Find Me then JJ? Would that make you happy and pleased with yourself?

/endsarcasm