Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

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JettJackson
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by JettJackson »

jouldax wrote:This game for the last several rounds has been:

1. Trade locally for a couple weeks
2. Build planets
3. Build a route and mine it so you can trade unfettered
4. Sit in galaxies on super routes until you can get enough to bust a rock

This is killing the game. Lowering initial multipliers won't stop trading...it will force people to trade MORE to achieve the same results, increasing the time people are in hunters, or the mid game which is usually the most active. Also, god forbid you have to plan how to build a route with what's around you. There will be ports in those walled off sections; use one of those as a starting point. PRs have been made easier and it's an aspect of the game that goes largely ignored. And now, with galaxies somewhat near each other, you might screw up each other's routes and, in doing so, force the map to evolve for everyone. You complained last game when Nij had an accidental perfect 7x in their quadrant, and I agreed it shouldn't have gone into the game. I'm sorry, but I don't think trading in racial the entire game should ever give you a chance to come anywhere near the top of the rankings, and that's been expressed repeatedly on these boards and in private to me. People don't even trade if there's a potential hunter on cpl because they've been conditioned by optimal placement of ports near fed and there's nothing in the game now that forces you to switch your strategy to succeed.

TLDR: Same old same old is not working. We need to be trying something different. This was a common suggestion to me going into the next round and I'd like to try it out.

Jouldax how did busting ports go for you this game, you guys had to combine 3 alliances just to port raid and even at that you barely had enough, the expectation that people are going to drop out of the sky or something to be able to port raid is a bit foolhardy. And I am not saying lowering the multiplier would stop trading, I said people won't want to have to trade that much, especially if they are casual players. Really all this does is ;) off both sides for no reason, the casual players wont put forth the effort and the hardcore players will be annoyed in having to trade a ton to achieve minor goals. Plus with out any decent routes in the outer gals all you are going to do is force people to trade racials all game.

PRs haven't been made easier unless this is something I don't know about. If anything they have been made harder due to the port's ability to gain drones infinitely.

Really this is all a bit over the top with respect to planets, I mean you need a port for stocking the planets as well. If you make the port 15 sectors away from the nearest planet, why would someone want to stock and land on rocks. Every single one of these things combines to severely slow the game down.
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by Incognito »

I'm fine with no level 9 ports in racials, just remember that you will end up trading more tier 2 goods, so even less cash than before. I think JJ brings up a valid concern if there are no ports in the pgals and terrible initial routes at the start of the round. With lower member caps than the traditional 30 or 25, it takes longer for an alliance to get everyone into top traders and build the AA. With the current plan, I think it would be at least 2 weeks before an alliance would consider upgrading a port and even longer before they op. And if the alliance is able to get on their feet after a few weeks and start building a planet gal, that will severely effect their income. Once they start moving their entire alliance into warbirds, their AA will go down fast, between the occasional op and mining efforts. Unless they can get enough people early on to hit ports, the alliance will fall flat, guaranteed. Then they are stuck playing from fed, which we all want to avoid (I think).

So if you are adamant about having no ports in the planet gals, then there has to be at least semi-decent routes (note the plural) in the neutrals. Otherwise you'll get one alliance that just happens to make cash right away and can then starve the other alliances before they even have a chance.

(Personally I like ports in pgals, especially at the rate planets build early on now. But I'm willing to try it out for a game.)
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by jouldax »

I planned on putting some ok routes in the neutrals, but I don't want really good cash routes to start the game. And yes, fed alliances = bad.

JJ, we had no problem PRing at the beginning of the game, even with 7 of us busting level 9s. We had a number of PR ops without anyone from any other alliance, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Alliances only combined to bust rocks.

The problem to me is both your lines of thinking. It's like the game has a set formula where if you're not landed on planets after, say, one month, the game is broken. I'm just trying to change things around so that other actions are necessary to get from point A to point B, which has been the major complaint I've received from other players. I also really like the idea of not having a super defensible port where you can just sit behind mines and trade all day. I will ask other players for more feedback on the port in pgal issue, where the most I'd be willing to be accommodating would be to stick the port on one of the warps in the pgal.
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by Incognito »

jouldax wrote:I planned on putting some ok routes in the neutrals, but I don't want really good cash routes to start the game. And yes, fed alliances = bad.

JJ, we had no problem PRing at the beginning of the game, even with 7 of us busting level 9s. We had a number of PR ops without anyone from any other alliance, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Alliances only combined to bust rocks.

The problem to me is both your lines of thinking. It's like the game has a set formula where if you're not landed on planets after, say, one month, the game is broken. I'm just trying to change things around so that other actions are necessary to get from point A to point B, which has been the major complaint I've received from other players. I also really like the idea of not having a super defensible port where you can just sit behind mines and trade all day. I will ask other players for more feedback on the port in pgal issue, where the most I'd be willing to be accommodating would be to stick the port on one of the warps in the pgal.

I did not mean to imply that the game is broken if you are not landed after a month or so. What I am concerned about it the amount of time it will take for an alliance to be able to get the cash to op. If that takes too long (especially >3 weeks), the game WILL go stale. So then if an alliance ops too soon, that can put them far behind other alliances in terms of cash, which makes it much harder for that alliance to compete (we've seen this before).
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by jouldax »

Yes, that I understand. There does need to be some balance between extending the trading period and getting cash for ops. The new 16 man caps should help (12 vets, 4 newbs). The max route will be more than a 5x, but I want the bulk for routes to be smaller.
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by JettJackson »

jouldax wrote:Yes, that I understand. There does need to be some balance between extending the trading period and getting cash for ops. The new 16 man caps should help (12 vets, 4 newbs). The max route will be more than a 5x, but I want the bulk for routes to be smaller.
If it takes 3 weeks to afford money to op, people will just not want to play. You yourself said there are a lot of casual players. If you make things more difficult they are just going to say the hell with it. To me making things harder and like work is not something we should strive for with such a limited player base we have already.

As for the super defensible port, no route is safe, especially the outer port. No one will afford to mine up both sides of a route.
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by XDemonX »

jouldax wrote:Let me give you some feedback from the feedback I've received:

1. No ports in pgals means you can't have an easily defended route where you can just stockpile cash. You have to build routes nearby and create your own opportunities. This makes the game more interesting and requires more active defense for traders. I will probably leave a small smattering of ports in the walled off areas near the pgal warps that can serve as one side of the port, making them somewhat defensible without a hunter having to trudge all the way into the pgal to shoot traders they'll never see.

2. Small routes was how this game was founded. 1x used to be the norm, not the exception. This will force the game to last longer in the trading phase, which makes it more interesting for both traders and hunters, and delays the grand finale PB round which inevitably ends the game once more than one rock is busted.

3. Yes, individual players will have a harder time in this map, but joining forces was a key to success in this game, and I'd like to see some of the loners forced to make nice to achieve their own personal goals. Fostering teamwork should always be a goal of any map. In the meantime, I'll probably make one or two decent exp routes for the daring traders to attempt.
3a. By the way, PRing is not the only way to build a route (read:upgrade). Yes, that would take resources, but then, you can be clever about that and maybe buy some help.

4. Racials are small because you shouldn't get any benefit from trading safely. It's all about risk and reward. The closer you are to fed when you trade, the less you should be rewarded.
Got a few texts about this game so I thought i'd pop in and give some feedback. I'll address each one of your points.

1. Alliance size is too small for this kind of setup. Why are you making money HARDER to achieve. Getting numbers for op is clearly a problem and now you are adding in the factor of having money much more difficult to come by. By making traders/defenders travel farther to routes you are wasting their turns. These ports will also be much easier for other alliances to come by and ruin since they are not protected in mines. Again, there is no reason to take out ports in pgals.

2. I've been playing this game for over 12 years. I really don't know what you're talking about a 1x being the "norm" there have only ever been a few traders who traded a 1x as their main route and those were ones who were terrified of dying so they hid on that. Have you ever traded a 1x? It is the most annoying thing in the world. The amount of clicking in insane to do on a daily/ every other day bases. I'm sure even Holy will get bored of trading if he has to use a 1x. You again are trying to take more money out of the game. a 1x produces little to no money. This is a alliance based game and has no room for someone to worthlessly trade a "1x". I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were using a 1x as a example and not really expecting people to trade a 1x. A 3x is more realistic as a 3x3x2x2 was a average route. Again, little to no money will be made with this. All you're doing is making people play conservative because money will be much harder to come by. I can already see JJ flipping out now at people who die because it took 10 days for one person to trade enough money for one WB.

3. Solo players already have a hard enough time and usually go inactive. Now, they will just go inactive farther. Some people prefer to play alone and would prefer not to be FORCED into a alliance to play this game.

4. Out of everything, this is the one thing I can agree with. But nerfing routes to a point where it is USELESS to trade in racial isn't a smart play for a game with a playerbase so limited.

Overall, poor map design/concept. Some of these ideas would be great if you had a playerbase to support it but it isn't. I foresee this being a short round with barely any action.
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by jouldax »

Got a few texts about this game so I thought i'd pop in and give some feedback. I'll address each one of your points.

1. Alliance size is too small for this kind of setup. Why are you making money HARDER to achieve. Getting numbers for op is clearly a problem and now you are adding in the factor of having money much more difficult to come by. By making traders/defenders travel farther to routes you are wasting their turns. These ports will also be much easier for other alliances to come by and ruin since they are not protected in mines. Again, there is no reason to take out ports in pgals.

2. I've been playing this game for over 12 years. I really don't know what you're talking about a 1x being the "norm" there have only ever been a few traders who traded a 1x as their main route and those were ones who were terrified of dying so they hid on that. Have you ever traded a 1x? It is the most annoying thing in the world. The amount of clicking in insane to do on a daily/ every other day bases. I'm sure even Holy will get bored of trading if he has to use a 1x. You again are trying to take more money out of the game. a 1x produces little to no money. This is a alliance based game and has no room for someone to worthlessly trade a "1x". I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were using a 1x as a example and not really expecting people to trade a 1x. A 3x is more realistic as a 3x3x2x2 was a average route. Again, little to no money will be made with this. All you're doing is making people play conservative because money will be much harder to come by. I can already see JJ flipping out now at people who die because it took 10 days for one person to trade enough money for one WB.

3. Solo players already have a hard enough time and usually go inactive. Now, they will just go inactive farther. Some people prefer to play alone and would prefer not to be FORCED into a alliance to play this game.

4. Out of everything, this is the one thing I can agree with. But nerfing routes to a point where it is USELESS to trade in racial isn't a smart play for a game with a playerbase so limited.

Overall, poor map design/concept. Some of these ideas would be great if you had a playerbase to support it but it isn't. I foresee this being a short round with barely any action.
Ok, my responses to you would be as follows:

1. I raised the cap to 12 vets and 4 newbies. I'm not sure why everyone keeps overlooking that. Also, it's not HARDER to achieve, it just takes maybe an extra week. For those of you that have actually been paying attention, the game is most active in the early and middle stages, and then dies when everyone is parked on rocks. This has been the most prominent feedback I've received as well. As for defending ports in pgals, this was another major complaint. Now you actually have to defend your ports a little more (there will be ports inside the walled off areas, so you can use those and not have anyone just walk up to them). Again, another major piece of feedback I received.

2. Yes, I was using hyperbole. Back in the day, 1-3x was absolutely the norm, but it doesn't mean I'm going to make all the routes 1x. That would be crazy. I'm not trying to destroy the game, I'm just trying to lengthen the trading phase. It also forces teams to be more stategic about PRs (again, I've given you more people, so don't complain you can't get enough; we busted level 9's with 7 last game). Furthermore, NOT EVERY ROUTE IS GOING TO BE A 1-3X!!! I said it would be the norm. I'm not going to have 7x's in racials and I'm sure there will be some ok money routes to start in the neutrals. Give me a little credit.

3/4 since they're related. I'm not going to nerf racials to be useless. Maybe there will be a 4x in one. Maybe it will have a nice link to a port right outside that races warp. Solo players are already basically inactive or extinct, but it should be rightfully a lot harder for them to get to number one ESPECIALLY if their main plan is to trade racials. You can choose to look at that as forcing them to change, or you can look at it, as I prefer to do, as rewarding teamwork. Plenty of unwritten alliances have been made in the FFA game, and those seem to work just fine.

As for the map, the design is mostly based off of suggestions from your former alliance, XDX, and I've taken enough :D from people wanting me to change the game even more drastically. However, we don't have the players for that. I'd be happy to step aside as mapmaker if someone could come up with anything halfway creative instead of the circle jerk hunter rape maps that follow the standard rush cash, hunt for a week, get to planets, and clear back and forth until you can maybe bust a rock and the game ends formula.
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by seldum »

money needs to be easier to attain

2 month game.
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Re: Jouldax - The Emerald Cut

Post by JettJackson »

seldum wrote:money needs to be easier to attain

2 month game.
Yes, the problem with the current game is we are ending it almost 4 weeks early, so it makes no sense to put out a game that is of similar length and then prolong it even more with slower/worse trade options. Also adding 3 people to a vet cap is not going to fix the money issue, especially if the best route is something like a 7x. This is just going to increase frustration when it takes several days to make cash for a wb only to get killed like XDX said. I foresee this map going inactive very quickly because of this disconnect in trading. I have yet to see anyone who actually agrees with this style of trading and map. Maybe they are out there but the silent minority shouldn't dictate this map.
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