Winter Solstice

Incognito
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Winter Solstice

Post by Incognito »

Speed: 1.5
Max Turns: 650
Alliance cap: 20 (16 Vets)


Warp spots on image do not correspond to actual locations ingame.
WinterSolstice Map.png
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XDemonX
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by XDemonX »

4 pgals when there have only been 2 full alliances for a while? why...
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XDemonX
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by XDemonX »

Now that I was able to buy all the maps and see what the layout really is I have some comments on the maps.

This map has me very concerned in what the expectations were for this game.

There are 4 PGals. 2 of the galaxies have unos 5 sectors away from warp, other 2 is 4 from warp. Each neutral galaxy is flooded with uno. This map has little to no tunneling. For mining, this makes it VERY inefficient to use mines. The cost of clearing < cost of buying the mines by a large margin. There has only been 2 full alliances for the last 4+ years. Few spurts of having 3 alliances with 1 being very incomplete.. but yet there are 4 planet galaxies. Because of the layout there will be no protection especially with 3 planets. Typically alliance base 2 landers and 1 bonder. That gives no real guess work to what planet(s) to bust. With classic ships and 650 turn max each alliance will have no problem taking all 3 planets with a good turnout. Hell, last game Jouldax's alliance took a max level planet with some crap ships and 7 people.

This game will playout like this. Both alliances will start out building planets. Whoever has the first op will get some free kills and force the other alliance to play from fed. Then that alliance from fed will op, get some kills and then both alliances will realize it is smarter to just play from fed.. Why give out free kills? Then the game will turn out to everyone sitting in fed and waiting 3-5 days to have 1-2 hour of activity for opping. Racial routes are pretty good. There is no real reason to build a route because enough money can be made from racial routes. Arming is fairly simple too. It is worth the extra turns to just keep your ship and play from fed.

This map promotes zero opportunity to do team related tasks such as mining, route building, galaxy building, galaxy defending.

This map promotes little to no activity. Why spend time trying to defending/building a galaxy you cant' defend?

Overall I am extremely disappointed with the admin team for rolling out this dumpster fire of a map. Get more people involved in the map making process. You are relying on 1-2 people to build a map the entire game has to deal with for 2+ months. Is it really that difficult for the admin team to openly discuss things such as MAPS? You can put someone in head of creating the map then.. you post the map in this forum that you set up then you send out an admin message saying "HEY next game map is up for discussion. Please take a look and provide feedback". Then as a team, you can discuss the feedback and decide what should changed on the map. Admin team is small.. plan an op to have discussions like this. This can be done in less than 30 minutes in mIRC. This should be done with enough time to make the changes.
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Holti
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by Holti »

Get more people involved in the map making process. You are relying on 1-2 people to build a map the entire game has to deal with for 2+ months. Is it really that difficult for the admin team to openly discuss things such as MAPS? You can put someone in head of creating the map then.. you post the map in this forum that you set up then you send out an admin message saying "HEY next game map is up for discussion. Please take a look and provide feedback".
When I was an admin, I created this forum (which is open to all players) for the expressed purpose of having players submit their map designs and have an open discussion on the pros and cons of those submitted maps. I even sent out admin messages encouraging players to submit their maps designs here.

At first, players did submit a few maps. But that hasn't happened in a long time. But the option for players to submit maps and discuss them was, and still is, there. Right here in this forum.
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by XDemonX »

Holti wrote:
Get more people involved in the map making process. You are relying on 1-2 people to build a map the entire game has to deal with for 2+ months. Is it really that difficult for the admin team to openly discuss things such as MAPS? You can put someone in head of creating the map then.. you post the map in this forum that you set up then you send out an admin message saying "HEY next game map is up for discussion. Please take a look and provide feedback".
When I was an admin, I created this forum (which is open to all players) for the expressed purpose of having players submit their map designs and have an open discussion on the pros and cons of those submitted maps. I even sent out admin messages encouraging players to submit their maps designs here.

At first, players did submit a few maps. But that hasn't happened in a long time. But the option for players to submit maps and discuss them was, and still is, there. Right here in this forum.
That is great for players to do that. I have been apart of that and have given/received feedback. Why is the admin team using a different process for making maps? Just because they have an "admin" tag next to their name there is no need for them to have their map posted and discussed?

When you were an admin, and you sent out requests for people to make a map for next game.. I bet you got some good submissions. If I remember correctly, when this idea of having players make maps started.. You encouraged people to make maps, the maps were discussed then there was a vote (if there were multiple maps submitted) and players voted on the map.

I constantly ask about the upcoming maps. As I have stated many times before I think next game map should start being created as soon as a game start. When I inquired about the map this game I was told "JettJackson is in charge of making the map" and I then requested that he puts it on message board so we can discuss it. Of course, this never happened. I then PM'd JJ directly inquiring about the map. He gave me little to no detail. I then offered my help to him that I was more than happy to help and give my input. He ignored the offer.

Wasted resources.
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JettJackson
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by JettJackson »

XDemonX wrote:
Holti wrote:
Get more people involved in the map making process. You are relying on 1-2 people to build a map the entire game has to deal with for 2+ months. Is it really that difficult for the admin team to openly discuss things such as MAPS? You can put someone in head of creating the map then.. you post the map in this forum that you set up then you send out an admin message saying "HEY next game map is up for discussion. Please take a look and provide feedback".
When I was an admin, I created this forum (which is open to all players) for the expressed purpose of having players submit their map designs and have an open discussion on the pros and cons of those submitted maps. I even sent out admin messages encouraging players to submit their maps designs here.

At first, players did submit a few maps. But that hasn't happened in a long time. But the option for players to submit maps and discuss them was, and still is, there. Right here in this forum.
That is great for players to do that. I have been apart of that and have given/received feedback. Why is the admin team using a different process for making maps? Just because they have an "admin" tag next to their name there is no need for them to have their map posted and discussed?

When you were an admin, and you sent out requests for people to make a map for next game.. I bet you got some good submissions. If I remember correctly, when this idea of having players make maps started.. You encouraged people to make maps, the maps were discussed then there was a vote (if there were multiple maps submitted) and players voted on the map.

I constantly ask about the upcoming maps. As I have stated many times before I think next game map should start being created as soon as a game start. When I inquired about the map this game I was told "JettJackson is in charge of making the map" and I then requested that he puts it on message board so we can discuss it. Of course, this never happened. I then PM'd JJ directly inquiring about the map. He gave me little to no detail. I then offered my help to him that I was more than happy to help and give my input. He ignored the offer.

Wasted resources.
You did not come to me about putting the discussion on the message board, furthermore by the time you came to me about the map, it was already done and had been approved by the other admins. The map is fine contrary to your complaint, at this point since this is a perpetual thing it is to the point where you complain only because you don't have your input into EVERY SINGLE aspect of the game. Case in point the ships or other maps. Just because you hate something doesn't mean everyone else does and I am tired of hearing your complaints especially when it is me doing something. Why not just come out and say that you'd rather I be gone from here, you don't care about change you just don't want me making the change.
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jouldax
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by jouldax »

The map should have been posted for discussion beforehand (I'll take the blame for that), but in reviewing the map, there are at least a couple of pgals that are fairly defensible, especially if you have people online, and, by and large, the map layout is fine with decent routes. We also have an admin team to make sure maps get made in time for the next round, especially when there's a large patch or workload to deal with on top of creating the game, so player input isn't always going to happen. Furthermore, it seems like every map the answer is to op from fed, no matter how close or far the planets are apart. Frankly, with all the changes that had to be made this round, I'm glad we got any map up in time at all.

If you don't want to play this map, don't play. If you want to enjoy the game and play, then play. I've taken feedback on every map I've made over the past several rounds and people still always end up :D about the final product. Maps will never be perfect but this one isn't the "dumpster fire" you say it is.
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by XDemonX »

You did not come to me about putting the discussion on the message board, furthermore by the time you came to me about the map, it was already done and had been approved by the other admins. The map is fine contrary to your complaint, at this point since this is a perpetual thing it is to the point where you complain only because you don't have your input into EVERY SINGLE aspect of the game. Case in point the ships or other maps. Just because you hate something doesn't mean everyone else does and I am tired of hearing your complaints especially when it is me doing something. Why not just come out and say that you'd rather I be gone from here, you don't care about change you just don't want me making the change.
JJ, First of all.. Calm down. Ask Jouldax I was texting him yelling at him last night about this. I am not bashing everything you are doing. Please try to stick to the points I am making. What was your thought process to why you made uno's so close to pgals? What were your expectations of this map? As I stated in the PM I sent you in game (If you replied I can't login to check.. work has it blocked) if you have legitimate reasoning to why you made the map that way.. to why you don't want planets easily defended.. to why you made racial routes so strong that building a route is out of the equation.. then I will respect that.
jouldax wrote:The map should have been posted for discussion beforehand (I'll take the blame for that), but in reviewing the map, there are at least a couple of pgals that are fairly defensible, especially if you have people online, and, by and large, the map layout is fine with decent routes. We also have an admin team to make sure maps get made in time for the next round, especially when there's a large patch or workload to deal with on top of creating the game, so player input isn't always going to happen. Furthermore, it seems like every map the answer is to op from fed, no matter how close or far the planets are apart. Frankly, with all the changes that had to be made this round, I'm glad we got any map up in time at all.

If you don't want to play this map, don't play. If you want to enjoy the game and play, then play. I've taken feedback on every map I've made over the past several rounds and people still always end up :P about the final product. Maps will never be perfect but this one isn't the "dumpster fire" you say it is.
A lot of times the answer is to not op from fed. We have had this discussion many times and everytime someone makes a map they're trying to reinvent the wheel. For a few games, we had a nice spree of high port density racials which promoted making a route. Making a route in/near pgal = reason to land = reason to defend/mine = activity because you have more people doing more jobs than just.. "ok.. when is next op? lets sit on max turns until then". By these responses you guys are giving it seems you are either not grasping what I am trying to say or the admin team is happy with activity to only be driven through ops alone. Which to go off your point that "It is fairly defendable, especially if you have people online" You should have took out the word "especially" pgals are NOT defendable unless you have people online. Mines will not be used this game besides a few stacks here and there. Uno's are in close proximity of each other which makes it near impossible to mine. If people try to mine it will be easy clearing. When people from my alliance is doing what they did last game and just camp INSIDE your galaxy for hours not letting anyone move then that is not the way the game is supposed to be played.

I already alerted Azn I will be handing him leadership later today. I will most likely play solo as I don't find the game fun to do what you guys did last game.. not move for a week until op time. JJ already sent me a PM saying we won the game.

Maybe me and holy will have our own circlejerk to see who can trade more. Hopefully next game you guys at least consider a some points I am trying to make about map creation. I will stick to my guns that this map is in fact a dumpster fire.
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JettJackson
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by JettJackson »

XDemonX wrote:
You did not come to me about putting the discussion on the message board, furthermore by the time you came to me about the map, it was already done and had been approved by the other admins. The map is fine contrary to your complaint, at this point since this is a perpetual thing it is to the point where you complain only because you don't have your input into EVERY SINGLE aspect of the game. Case in point the ships or other maps. Just because you hate something doesn't mean everyone else does and I am tired of hearing your complaints especially when it is me doing something. Why not just come out and say that you'd rather I be gone from here, you don't care about change you just don't want me making the change.
JJ, First of all.. Calm down. Ask Jouldax I was texting him yelling at him last night about this. I am not bashing everything you are doing. Please try to stick to the points I am making. What was your thought process to why you made uno's so close to pgals? What were your expectations of this map? As I stated in the PM I sent you in game (If you replied I can't login to check.. work has it blocked) if you have legitimate reasoning to why you made the map that way.. to why you don't want planets easily defended.. to why you made racial routes so strong that building a route is out of the equation.. then I will respect that.
jouldax wrote:The map should have been posted for discussion beforehand (I'll take the blame for that), but in reviewing the map, there are at least a couple of pgals that are fairly defensible, especially if you have people online, and, by and large, the map layout is fine with decent routes. We also have an admin team to make sure maps get made in time for the next round, especially when there's a large patch or workload to deal with on top of creating the game, so player input isn't always going to happen. Furthermore, it seems like every map the answer is to op from fed, no matter how close or far the planets are apart. Frankly, with all the changes that had to be made this round, I'm glad we got any map up in time at all.

If you don't want to play this map, don't play. If you want to enjoy the game and play, then play. I've taken feedback on every map I've made over the past several rounds and people still always end up :P about the final product. Maps will never be perfect but this one isn't the "dumpster fire" you say it is.
A lot of times the answer is to not op from fed. We have had this discussion many times and everytime someone makes a map they're trying to reinvent the wheel. For a few games, we had a nice spree of high port density racials which promoted making a route. Making a route in/near pgal = reason to land = reason to defend/mine = activity because you have more people doing more jobs than just.. "ok.. when is next op? lets sit on max turns until then". By these responses you guys are giving it seems you are either not grasping what I am trying to say or the admin team is happy with activity to only be driven through ops alone. Which to go off your point that "It is fairly defendable, especially if you have people online" You should have took out the word "especially" pgals are NOT defendable unless you have people online. Mines will not be used this game besides a few stacks here and there. Uno's are in close proximity of each other which makes it near impossible to mine. If people try to mine it will be easy clearing. When people from my alliance is doing what they did last game and just camp INSIDE your galaxy for hours not letting anyone move then that is not the way the game is supposed to be played.

I already alerted Azn I will be handing him leadership later today. I will most likely play solo as I don't find the game fun to do what you guys did last game.. not move for a week until op time. JJ already sent me a PM saying we won the game.

Maybe me and holy will have our own circlejerk to see who can trade more. Hopefully next game you guys at least consider a some points I am trying to make about map creation. I will stick to my guns that this map is in fact a dumpster fire.
I did reply to you in game, so you can check there.
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Re: Winter Solstice

Post by jouldax »

Honestly, I didn't even want to bring up last game or this game, for that matter, which has us (casual) against pretty much all of the active hunters in the game. You know what we did last game? We took several new players, including Kenny in an NMV, and let them have FUN! I understand that our infrequent opping isn't your idea of fun or that it limits the amount of targets you have during the day, but killing italics destroys the game much worse than any map as does repeated killing of new players, which happened several times last round. Thankfully our guys have proven to have some good intestinal fortitude but it is really taxing to keep spirits up.

There are several aspects to this game, including trading, hunting and opping. We're trying to help out the limited new user base as much as we can. I don't think everyone on your team shares your opinion as well about the round or the map. This game isn't supposed to be a lovefest but, if we want new player retention, there needs to be some level of teaching in addition to attempts at domination.
When people from my alliance is doing what they did last game and just camp INSIDE your galaxy for hours not letting anyone move then that is not the way the game is supposed to be played.
I'm not so sure you don't think this is the way the game is supposed to be played. There's not really enough activity or cash to create a reasonable enough minefield when people are clearing every day from one alliance or the other. It's not about trying to reinvent the wheel - it's about trying to cater to the player base we have. There are 2 different philosophies: play the game like it used to be and try to dominate every round or keep things competitive and, while playing seriously, try to help everyone have a good time and grow a better attitude in the player base. I wish more people felt like the latter than the former but I don't think that's the case. I can't blame people for wanting to win either so it puts the game in a precarious position between the hardcore and the casual.
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