Discussion: MINES

[LotuS]

The recent changes to mines are a problem. I think we need to evaluate the changes that have been made, keep some, and loose some.

lets review what changes mines have had to them recently. They dont take 3 turns anymore, they take 1. A fleet can clear a sector of 7000 forces without unoing once. They expire instantaniously unless you have scouts on them. and, they doubled in cost to 20000 each. This hurts alot of aspects of this game, from being able to adequately defend your galaxy/territory, to being able to ensnare trade ships if your a hunter, to further dismantling any need/prefrence for ships with mines.

When was the last time you saw someone mine in a levitahon? When was the last time a death cruiser poded you trading? where are the carapaces? the mine hunting ships are vanishing. Being evil used to be by far more popular than going good. Now a days, its all green, because a) the combat code isint what it used to be, and mines are virtually worthless. I will make another post about combat code later. Point being, that mines power is gone. And I dont like it.

I think we should keep the 1 turn for running into a single mine change. this doesent steal peoples gameplay as much as it used to.
I think we should not keep the ability for a fleet to sit in sector, group fire on mines, and not take any damage. Mines should hit you if you fire them.
I think we should do something with single mines, a single mine should not expire in 10 minutes, but not 24 hours either. perhaps a 1 hour+(current mine expire formula), this way there is a small buffer, and your 20000 credit mine doesent just always expire...
As for the cost of mines, I think returning them to 10000 is the way to go. Especially if they are as weak as they currently are. If we made the above changes, and brought some of the power back to mines, then 20000 would be acceptable, but in its current state, 20000 per mine is ridiculous.


Discuss....

[Kahless_]

It's true. Mines were slightly overpowered (though mostly only because people were too lazy to actively clear them).

So, change was acceptable. But the problem is of the changes were made in one fell swoop, taking mines from being a slightly overly attractive option, to a mostly pointless part of the game. If the changes had been made one at a time to see how they affected balance, i reckon after 1 change mines would have been brought into line and problem would have been solved.

Expiry times of singles needed to be nerfed, but not as much as they have been. 1 hour like Loty suggests makes them useful to hunters/traders without being an absolute constant nuisance.

Bring back 3 turn cost for stacks with more than 10 mines.

Remove the loophole, and yes i think its a loophole, that allows fleets to clear without taking damage (I.e, make it so mines hit ship first).

And cost, i think a cost of 20000 is fine for mines the way they used to be, back when they lasted, they did damage etc. If mines are going to stay the way they are currently, make them cost 10000..

[Page]

Mine stacks turn cost varies based on the size already, 1 is 0 turns (so spamming singles won't eat turns but will slow people for use in hunting), 2-9 is 1 turn, 10-24 is 2 and 25+ is 3 - standard movement turn cost is on top of this.
The expiry time had changed in that I think it used to be rounded up to the nearest day, such that a single mine would always last at least one day, and 10 would be 2, etc. Now it's 1mine is 144mins if the default 5days expiry is used (1/50th of the max expiry time for the given galaxy) - if the mapmaker has set the expiry time low it will result in singles that last for less time though.

[RCK]

Discussed this with Lotus some this morning.

We figured out a possible solution, change the way mines currently work (hitting the ship last) to under regular circumstances(and ships) mines hit like they used to (ship first)

With the exception of the FD and FW ships (not FU).

This serves 2 purposes,

1st: Encourages these 2 ships to be used more (and we are always trying to find ways to make ships used)
2nd: Eliminates the current "park our fleet in a sector" and someone just shoots the mines to clear them, which has taken an "skill" out of clearing mines.

Just some added thoughts.

From my perspective, the expiry time and the cost are both acceptable.

[Infinity]

So, Im just going to nod

Price is fine, games are faster and we make quite enough money. It's fine if it takes some skill in alliance organization to actually produce the money, it's not supposed to be easy.

Also, nice tweak for fed ships Good balance between utility and combat values of federal ships.

[JettJackson]

Someone made a suggestion in game about the mine code, Id like to further advance on it here with an example of why the mine code needs to be switched back. Earlier today 5 shadow players were able to walk into our gal and clear 6 sectors of 18+ full mine stacks like they were singles. Should this be able to happen, I dont think it should. Why should the attacking team be granted such an advantage over the defending team, if they had 8-10 ships they would have been able to clear the gal and have turns to spare. Its about balance, I know the code was changed to squander large mine fields but it was nerfed too much, what should have happened was the code should have not changed but the length of time that mines expire in neutral gals should have been limited. Essentially the problem is when you enter a sector you fire on the mines then the mines hit you, thus greatly decreasing the effectiveness of the mines, where as mines should hit first then you fire to kill them, like it originally was. I think if this isnt corrected you could effectively take out planets because there is no way to defend them without being online all the time to defend them.

[JettJackson]

I think the main thing that will correct alot of the problems is the order of the mines firing, they should fire first then the player should fire. If that is done the rest will be balanced.

[Freon22]

Right I would think that if you entered a minefield you would hit mines before your weapons fired. Then after that if you were going to attack the remaining mines you would hit more of them when moving your ship for firing.

[RCK]

Right I would think that if you entered a minefield you would hit mines before your weapons fired. Then after that if you were going to attack the remaining mines you would hit more of them when moving your ship for firing.

Wonder in that regard from a "realistic' point of view....

Mines fire first as you enter, there after you can fire on them first

[Purify]

I don't like blanket mine fields.